moggy lover

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Posts by moggy lover

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  22

  144,000 & The Trinity

  by Libby in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  now that i'm looking beyond what the wt teaches i'm struggling to find information on three topics.

  the 144,000, the trinity and prayer.. if anyone has 5 minutes could they explain:.

  1. what do other religions think the 144,000 are or is?

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  moggy lover

  I am afraid you are requesting a teeny bit too much asking for explanations about two very complex teachings, one of which is found in a highly controversial book in the NT, called the book of Revelation,which is filled with largely symbolic language that is never explained. There are flying dragons and scrolls, and whatnot, all of which defy gravity, both literal and symbolic.

  This means that we as humans need to supply the meanings attached to those symbols, and naturally not everyone agrees with these explanations.

  It cannot be covered in 5 minutes. Vanderhoven7's crisp and clear video above is an excellent summation of the Watchtower position and required 14 minutes to explain.

  1. The concept of the 144,000 can be either symbolic or literal. Take your pick.

  The Watchtower Leadership, who conceive themselves to be the elite spokesmen for God, believe that they have an explanation that is uniquely divine, and is not open to dissent or debate by the rank and file followers.

  They believe and teach that the 144,000 are part symbolic [made up of symbolic Jews from 12 symbolic tribes of Israel] and part literal [the number from these symbolic tribes is somehow literal]

  2. Some [like the SDAs and other Reformed Churches] believe that the 144k are symbolic in that they are spiritual Jews who are thus identified as the entire body of believing Christians who have been born again, and who have replaced the Jews as God's people.

  3. Those like me who belong to Dispensational Churches, [I'm a Baptist] believe that they are literally Jews from the 12 "Tribes of Israel" as Rev 7:4 says. To the charge that these tribes no longer exist and thus cannot be the literal Tribes of Israel the reply is that the tribes are not actually non existent, it is simply that the records to prove who belong in these tribes are lost. There is nothing to suggest that these records cannot be archaeologically recovered.

  It must be pointed out that the 144k are not presently in view, but will be manifest only AFTER some items of prophecy have been fulfilled. See Rev 7:1, where John says that he saw the 144k only "After these things" which is what is portrayed in the last verse of Rev 6, which appears to describe the start of the Great Tribulation. Thus the 144k are, according to the literalist view, a purely Great Tribulation phenomenon.

  In all fairness, a Watchtower Follower once told me that "After" in Rev 7:1 is symbolic, and must be interpreted as "Before these things", that is, going all the way back to 33AD.

  Yeah, right.
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  5

  2015 Wt Library CD Rom 2015

  by moggy lover in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does anyone know if the 2015 edition of the wt library is available on cd rom?

  does anyone have it for download?.

  cheers.

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  moggy lover

  Does anyone know if the 2015 edition of the WT Library is available on CD Rom?

  Does anyone have it for download?

  Cheers
  
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  6

  Did you miss the gala?

  by wheelwithinwheel in

  1. jw
  2. friends
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  moggy lover

  Sorry. I don't know how to make the web site clickable.
  
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  6

  Did you miss the gala?

  by wheelwithinwheel in

  1. jw
  2. friends
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  moggy lover

  Blondie: "Must be some inside joke".

  This is the reference:
  

  http://jwsurvey.org/general-information/watchtower-stoops-to-new-low-purchases-telly-awards-statuettes-and-publishes-phony-quote-on-jw-org#comments

  Evidently there is this slightly decrepit sales organization that announces "winners" in a TV competition. Actually this is a gimmick and these "awards" are provided to anyone who actually buys these awards.

  The purchaser can then announce themselves as the "winner" in whatever category takes their fancy. Since the WTS evidently purchased two of these "awards" they then are entitled to announce themselves as winners.

  As the above article from JW Survey indicates, the WTS is not the only bogus organization to stoop to this level. It has great company in other organizations equally shady as the WTS, who also parade themselves as winners.
  
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  22

  TWISTING context to produce false LIGHT (Tricks our Governing Body uses)

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as a jehovah's witness:.

  two things finally struck me:.

  1. i was really in a grown up kindergarten and .

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  moggy lover

  Excellent summation of Prov 4:18. How's this for a false dichotomy:

  If the "light" gets brighter and brighter,

  does it also mean that

  the "Truth" gets "truther" and "truther"?
  
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  19

  1950 Watchtower Bound Volume now Complete!

  by Atlantis in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the 1950 september 15th watchtower is now complete and this will finish the 1950 watchtower bound volume.

  a big thank you to jaydee for all of his hard work of scanning the watchtowers into jpg files which i received and converted into pdf files and made them searchable.

  jaydee worked day and night to get these files finished for us and i really appreciate his kindness... we only had to darken out one name on one shipping label.

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  moggy lover

  I think we should all stand and raise our glasses to the tremendous effort it has taken all those responsible who provided such a valuable historical resource for researchers everywhere.
  

  For the first time in history, and especially in our lifetime, the entire corpus of Watchtower magazine literature has been made available, free to all who need it and in one sustainable package. It has taken almost 20 GB of digital information, collated into easy to read formats, and without even one syllable missing.

  There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed.

  Remember that the Watchtower is the chief theological journal of the Watchtower movement, and with its reduction to a digital format in the hands of a conniving Leadership it can, in later years, be edited to say what it needs to say.
  

  Cheers, Atlantis and everyone responsible.
  
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  15

  A new religion/cult?

  by roberto avon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a new religion?.

  it has been a while that i didn't post.

  as some of you may know i live in italy and ( maybe ) something curious is happening.

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  moggy lover

  Have these guys reached out to a wider audience by translating their views in other languages like, say, English?
  
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  24

  A MODERN FICTION: the lie which became a GOVERNING BODY

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  safe to say, if you walked up to any of the 8 million jehovah's witnesses on earth today and told them the.

  governing body was a fiction, not only would they refuse to believe you--they'd consider you their immediate enemy!.

  what if i told you jw's embrace a mental construct which is at odds with history?.

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  moggy lover

  Wow! this is one well researched and written article. Thanks Terry.
  
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  19

  Theos and theon

  by SonoftheTrinity in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  oh how dubs will cling to da troof.

  this guy was trying to get me to agree that theos and theon were different words for god.

  i tried explaining that other languages have grammatical cases and the difference between calling god theos and theon was like the difference between referring to god as he(the subjective case) and him(the objective case.

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  moggy lover

  It has long been debated whether the translation of "a god" in Jo 1:1c is a legitimate rendering of what John the monotheist had in mind. Scholars, such as Julius Mantey have been misunderstood either for supporting or denying its efficacy.

  1. It must be accepted that both uses of the word in their respective cases refer to the same concept. In other words, God, or Deity.

  2. The word God, in this context cannot be conveniently nuanced by contradictory applications, and thus altering the meanings, one referring to Deity and the other not. And unfortunately that is what the use of the rendering "a god" does. It makes the phrase "with God" in Jo 1:1b mean God as Deity, and the rendering of "a god" of Jo 1:1c as something less than God, or by contextual semantics something that is "non-God".

  3. Thus the rendering "a" god is quite acceptable if Jo 1:1b was made to say "And the Word was with "The" god. But it is not so acceptable if the renderings are said to be: "the Word was with God... and the word was a god" . By using this convenient subterfuge one is tilting the balance in favour of an Arian understanding of the text when it is in fact teaching Monotheism. The kind of Monotheism being declared is in debate, not that the Trinitarian form is wrong and the Monad form is the only one permissible.
  

  4. Harner helped revolutionize our understanding of this grammatical construction and thus went farther than what Colwell did. Colwell was concerned about whether Jo 1:1c made θεος a definite or an indefinite noun. Harner showed that it was neither.

  5. Thus this construction is called "The Qualitative Nominative" or "Predicate Nominative". The NWT faces up to one such text in the same grammatical construction at Lu 20:38, where they say of the Father that He is "a God".

  6. If the Father can be called "a God" in a construction that is exactly the same as that of Jo 1:1c, then one would at least be satisfied if the NWT also called The Word "A God" at that latter verse. This would not be theologically applicable but grammatically permissible
  
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  4

  I have two questions about RC Australia

  by bobld in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  1.is this rc only about the wbts?.

  2. why did the gb/fds asked for all the money to be sent to hq?

  ok so they could sent all that money off shore..

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  moggy lover

  1. The official name for the government probe into child abuse in Australia is:

  The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse.

  [Like Canada, the UK, New Zealand and other countries in the Caribbean, Australia is a monarchy, and all government probes into national impropriety are called "Royal" Commissions. In other words they are done under the authority of the reigning monarch who currently is Queen Elizabeth the Second. It is her Royal authority that guarantees civil liberties within the realm]

  As a result of growing allegations of child abuse stemming from the mishandling of children in the protective care of institutions which were supposed to protect the rights of the children in their charge, back in 2012, the Australian government passed legislation through parliament establishing this Commission.

  Since many of these institutions were run by religious bodies, it was inevitable that the base policies of these religions would be probed as well. The Commission however was not restricted to uncovering child abuse in religions alone, but in all institutional facilities as well, whether sporting, political, health, and even state funded organizations.

  It has been on-going since the 13th of January 2013 when the Royal Commission was established. Thus far, such institutions as The Australian Boy Scouts, Swimming Australia, the Roman Catholic Church and its various offshoot bodies such as the St Vincent De Paul Society, The Salvation Army and others have been examined.

  The probe into the Jehovah's Witnesses began on the 20th of July this year. The examination is expected to last about three weeks.

  2. The answer to your second question may have several ramifications, the most important being that since the WTS is a highly concentrated power elite organization, it seems appropriate, to them at least, to concentrate all wealth in the hands of said elite.